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What do you do ?

Poll: What do you do ? (27 member(s) have cast votes)

Double or overcall ?

  1. X (1 votes [3.70%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 3.70%

  2. 3[diamonds] (22 votes [81.48%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 81.48%

  3. 2N (2 votes [7.41%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 7.41%

  4. P (2 votes [7.41%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 7.41%

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#1 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-December-15, 04:30



E opens a 6-10 weak 2 - as the poll says, X/3

Follow ups to follow, if it matters you play reverse leb over 2-X-P
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#2 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2020-December-15, 04:40

2N
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#3 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-December-15, 05:37

View Postnullve, on 2020-December-15, 04:40, said:

2N


Added as an option, categorically shows a stop for us
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#4 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2020-December-15, 05:47

3. If partner has he will bid. too strong for pass. shape wrong 2254 for X (3154,3244 I would X)
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#5 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-December-15, 05:55

View PostLBengtsson, on 2020-December-15, 05:47, said:

3. If partner has he will bid. too strong for pass. shape wrong 2254 for X (3154,3244 I would X)


How much more would you need to feel you were too strong for 3 ? as it is Kxx, xx, xx, Kxxxxx or Kxx, xxx, x, KQxxxx you might be struggling in 3 (or 2/3N if you overcalled 2N) with 5 cold
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#6 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2020-December-15, 06:36

View PostCyberyeti, on 2020-December-15, 05:55, said:

How much more would you need to feel you were too strong for 3 ? as it is Kxx, xxx, x, Kxxxxx you might be struggling in 3 (or 2/3N if you overcalled 2N) with 5 cold

I would bid 3 too. I think to double I'd need a hand where I am comfortable with passing or bidding on if the auction goes

(2) - Dbl - (4) - 4

which is more likely than missing a club game.

In my younger days I used to worry a lot more about getting the best result: nowadays I just try to bid my hand and leave everyone else to bid theirs.

I have more than sufficient complaints about my bidding with this philosophy to worry about :)
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#7 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2020-December-15, 09:27

I like these questions that leave room for imps and MP I chose P in survey because That would be my choice at IMPS where I do not wish to lose the match by bidding in this very dangerous position while I still have a partner that will balance with any reasonable semblance of a hand. What I would do if it goes 2h p p x seems like a more interesting question :)))))))))))))))))))))))))) (3H) I expect pass to be unpopular since it goes along with my theory of imagining the best hand p can have and still pass (in the direct seat and acting accordingly in the PO seat.

At MP I would hazard a 3d bid mainly because it dangerous to leave the opps in what looks like an easy 2 level spot. If we get clobbered it is only 1 board and we probably will lose only 30 MP while picking up 70 MP is hardly out of the question.
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#8 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-December-15, 09:39

View Postgszes, on 2020-December-15, 09:27, said:

I like these questions that leave room for imps and MP


I dealt it in practice so it could have been either, I thought it was an interesting problem. Btw have you discussed how forcing 2-P-P-2-P-3 is ?

As an aside, I play very wide ranging weak 2s (although this one was perfectly normal) and we make most of our gains when people overcall 3 on hands like these. Either partner has the hand and doubles or they play 3 going off when 2/3 is the right spot.
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#9 User is online   TylerE 

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Posted 2020-December-15, 10:36

3 for me at all forms of scoring and vulnerability, and frankly I don't think it's close.
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#10 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2020-December-15, 10:42

View PostCyberyeti, on 2020-December-15, 09:39, said:

I dealt it in practice so it could have been either, I thought it was an interesting problem. Btw have you discussed how forcing 2-P-P-2-P-3 is ?

As an aside, I play very wide ranging weak 2s (although this one was perfectly normal) and we make most of our gains when people overcall 3 on hands like these. Either partner has the hand and doubles or they play 3 going off when 2/3 is the right spot.

In what universe can we reach 2S or 3C?

If we pass, and partner reopens with 2S, we抮e hardly passing, so you抮e not discussing that.

So you抮e arguing for double.

That抯 silly.

If we double, which is a monstrous overbid imo, you suggest passing 2S? If partner bids 2S, he has a weak hand, and you may notice that we have short spades. He抯 not bidding 2S with as many as 6 unless he抯 truly broke, which is possible but improbable. His normal strength rates to be around 6-10 hcp.

If we double and he uses reverse lebensohl, to get out in 3C, that would be pretty good, but just think of the likelihood that he does that.

You seem to suggest that it抯 more likely that he has 6 clubs and a stiff diamond than that he has, say, 3=3 or 3=4 minors. That抯 nonsense.

Plus, of course, double is not going to work well ifLHO raises hearts and partner introduces a 4 card spade suit at the 3 or 4 level.

Want to talk about missing games? You double, LHO bids 4H and partner has Jxxxx x QJx KQxx. He should and would bid 4S, almost surely losing a heart and 3 spade tricks, almost cold for 5D, where you抎 be if you overcall 3D.

Yes, 3D is hardly risk-free. But passing is cowardly, and doubling fundamentally misguided, imo. It抯 not as if you have any clear action if partner reopens with 2S. 3D is certainly, then, constructive but partner should never play you for 7 controls! KQ10xx xx Qxx Kxx is a decent game yet he can抰 bid over 3D.

KQxxx x xx KQxxx even worse. Now you play 3D, with 6C pretty good. Note that over a 3D overcall, he bids 3S, you bid 4C and you reach game (slam is too tough)

I could go on, but anyone can construct hands to 憄rove?a point.

Suffice it to say that I抎 bid 3D at any form of scoring, because, while it is dangerous to do so, passing seems to me to be a bit more dangerous. Doubling, without spades and with only a modest 5 card suit, is nuts, imo. It抯 far worse than passing.

As for 2N, I抳e seen inexperienced players play this as showing the minors. I don抰 think I抳e ever heard of, let alone seen, a good pair use it that way, over a weak two. If intended as natural, it抯 ridiculous. Yes, we may belong in 3N, but (if so), it抯 extremely likely that we need partner to declare. And we抣l usually get there after a 3D overcall.

Btw, I do think this is a good problem, and that I抎 hate holding this hand at the table. I抎 be nervous if I bid, and even more nervous if I passed.
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#11 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-December-15, 10:47

View PostTylerE, on 2020-December-15, 10:36, said:

3 for me at all forms of scoring and vulnerability, and frankly I don't think it's close.


One of the next two hands is something like:



Better hope it's the right one
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#12 User is online   TylerE 

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Posted 2020-December-15, 11:52

Your're result merchanting in the worst way.
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#13 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-December-15, 11:59

View PostTylerE, on 2020-December-15, 11:52, said:

Your're result merchanting in the worst way.


Actually no, I'm making a serious point, overcalling 3m on a 5 card suit has had disastrous results over many years against my weak 2s, it's a big area of scoring for us and yes we've had 1400s and 1100s aplenty. It's one of the main reasons we play the particularly horrible style of weak 2s we do.
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#14 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2020-December-15, 12:10

View PostCyberyeti, on 2020-December-15, 11:59, said:

Actually no, I'm making a serious point, overcalling 3m on a 5 card suit has had disastrous results over many years against my weak 2s, it's a big area of scoring for us and yes we've had 1400s and 1100s aplenty. It's one of the main reasons we play the particularly horrible style of weak 2s we do.

It seems to me that the point you抮e trying to make us how wonderful you are for playing your style of weak two bids

Of course, if partner is the one holding that hand you showed, I am mistaken😀
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#15 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2020-December-15, 12:19

View PostCyberyeti, on 2020-December-15, 10:47, said:

One of the next two hands is something like:



Better hope it's the right one


I'm not sure what your point is. Bidding 3 is wrong because there exists a layout where it goes horribly wrong? So what, there exist layouts where it works out beautifully as well, and passing is not without risk. Bridge is a probabilistic game, so it comes down to what is most likely to get a decent, or at least satisfactory result, which cannot be diagnosed by looking at individual deals.
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#16 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-December-15, 12:27

View Postmikeh, on 2020-December-15, 12:10, said:

It seems to me that the point you抮e trying to make us how wonderful you are for playing your style of weak two bids

Of course, if partner is the one holding that hand you showed, I am mistaken😀


It was actually partner that held a hand not quite as extreme as that, the weak 2 we would have found too good for our style (xx, KJ109xx, x, KQxx) we'd open 1 as it's rule of 19 with all the points in long suits, the actual hand opposite was K108xx, AQx, Qxxxx, void and if you double, pass or bid 2N you can have some interesting issues, 3 should get you to at least 6, 7 is excellent and makes with spades 4-2 and trumps 2-1.

And no it was not particularly promoting our style of weak 2s, it's a lot easier for partner to double if he knows I have something, but we get a lot of +200s and 300s on nothing boards in auctions like 2-3 end, and this makes me much more reticent to do it when we hold similar hands.
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#17 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2020-December-15, 13:42

I'm sure you know my answer to this. And the answer to "how much stronger would you have to be to double?" Well, it's all controls, but it isn't extra HCP by any means. Say a round K at least?

Yeah, we go -110 and -140, or even +100 into +110, a lot against preempts-all-pass. But we don't go -100 (or -200, or -500) into +110 or +140 very often.
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#18 User is online   mcphee 

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Posted 2020-December-16, 02:06

Although I have only 5!D and my suit isn't great passing carries too much risk of missing game. Sure some days you may go for a digit so what, it happened before. I cant imagine passing at any form of scoring.
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#19 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-December-16, 04:18

View Postmikeh, on 2020-December-15, 10:42, said:

In what universe can we reach 2S or 3C?

If we pass, and partner reopens with 2S, we抮e hardly passing, so you抮e not discussing that.

So you抮e arguing for double.

That抯 silly.

If we double, which is a monstrous overbid imo, you suggest passing 2S? If partner bids 2S, he has a weak hand, and you may notice that we have short spades. He抯 not bidding 2S with as many as 6 unless he抯 truly broke, which is possible but improbable. His normal strength rates to be around 6-10 hcp.

If we double and he uses reverse lebensohl, to get out in 3C, that would be pretty good, but just think of the likelihood that he does that.

You seem to suggest that it抯 more likely that he has 6 clubs and a stiff diamond than that he has, say, 3=3 or 3=4 minors. That抯 nonsense.

Plus, of course, double is not going to work well ifLHO raises hearts and partner introduces a 4 card spade suit at the 3 or 4 level.

Want to talk about missing games? You double, LHO bids 4H and partner has Jxxxx x QJx KQxx. He should and would bid 4S, almost surely losing a heart and 3 spade tricks, almost cold for 5D, where you抎 be if you overcall 3D.

Yes, 3D is hardly risk-free. But passing is cowardly, and doubling fundamentally misguided, imo. It抯 not as if you have any clear action if partner reopens with 2S. 3D is certainly, then, constructive but partner should never play you for 7 controls! KQ10xx xx Qxx Kxx is a decent game yet he can抰 bid over 3D.

KQxxx x xx KQxxx even worse. Now you play 3D, with 6C pretty good. Note that over a 3D overcall, he bids 3S, you bid 4C and you reach game (slam is too tough)

I could go on, but anyone can construct hands to 憄rove?a point.

Suffice it to say that I抎 bid 3D at any form of scoring, because, while it is dangerous to do so, passing seems to me to be a bit more dangerous. Doubling, without spades and with only a modest 5 card suit, is nuts, imo. It抯 far worse than passing.

As for 2N, I抳e seen inexperienced players play this as showing the minors. I don抰 think I抳e ever heard of, let alone seen, a good pair use it that way, over a weak two. If intended as natural, it抯 ridiculous. Yes, we may belong in 3N, but (if so), it抯 extremely likely that we need partner to declare. And we抣l usually get there after a 3D overcall.

Btw, I do think this is a good problem, and that I抎 hate holding this hand at the table. I抎 be nervous if I bid, and even more nervous if I passed.


I wasn't actually arguing for anything, I was playing devil's advocate. I'm interested that you consider it self evident that 2-P-P-2-P-3 was NF, if it is then you can't pass, I wasn't sure. I'm also not sure exactly what 2-P-P-2-P-2N shows.

I assumed 2N was 15-17 bal in my comments to the poster who suggested it. I know almost nobody who plays it as minors.

I think I probably bid 3 at the table, but hate it and was trying to see if there was any alternative.
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#20 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2020-December-16, 06:27

View PostCyberyeti, on 2020-December-16, 04:18, said:

I assumed 2N was 15-17 bal in my comments to the poster who suggested it.

It was.

View Postmikeh, on 2020-December-15, 10:42, said:

If intended as natural, it抯 ridiculous.

I tried my best and failed.

Here

Spoiler

are 100 deals using

Spoiler

.
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