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What do you do ?

Poll: What do you do ? (27 member(s) have cast votes)

Double or overcall ?

  1. X (1 votes [3.70%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 3.70%

  2. 3[diamonds] (22 votes [81.48%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 81.48%

  3. 2N (2 votes [7.41%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 7.41%

  4. P (2 votes [7.41%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 7.41%

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#21 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2020-December-16, 07:37

I'm surprised at the vote, I would pass in a flash and don't consider it all that close.
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#22 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2020-December-16, 13:21

Nobody likes these decisions, It's why weak two's are effective. If this hand's partner has the second hand shown, then a 3D overcall is a good route to the 6D contract. If it's over us, then we've just got to hope that we can scramble to our (10?) card club fit.
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#23 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2020-December-18, 20:00

View PostCyberyeti, on 2020-December-15, 09:39, said:

I dealt it in practice so it could have been either, I thought it was an interesting problem. Btw have you discussed how forcing 2-P-P-2-P-3 is ?

As an aside, I play very wide ranging weak 2s (although this one was perfectly normal) and we make most of our gains when people overcall 3 on hands like these. Either partner has the hand and doubles or they play 3 going off when 2/3 is the right spot.


FWIW the belated 3d bid would be strongly suggestive but also spade discouraging so I would not make that bid with this hand but go to 3h which is primarily asking for a heart stop for 3n purposes (the inference being I have a long suit and a good hand but one that I could not x with nor feel safe to overcall). I admit that will get me too high sometimes but it is worth small losses sometimes to give us the best chance at being in the right strain.
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#24 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-December-19, 04:09

View Postgszes, on 2020-December-18, 20:00, said:

FWIW the belated 3d bid would be strongly suggestive but also spade discouraging so I would not make that bid with this hand but go to 3h which is primarily asking for a heart stop for 3n purposes (the inference being I have a long suit and a good hand but one that I could not x with nor feel safe to overcall). I admit that will get me too high sometimes but it is worth small losses sometimes to give us the best chance at being in the right strain.


I will be discussing this with my partner, our meta agreements suggest 3 would be forcing and 3 would be a good spade raise. I'm not sure what a delayed 2N does or should mean.
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#25 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2020-December-19, 05:53

(2)-P-(P)-2; (P)-?

I think it is unwise to play 3 in this position as forcing. Partner may have balanced on a mediocre hand, and your failure to overcall on the first round limits your own holding. It is very plausible neither of you have opening strength. Personally I play 2NT 9-11 balanced with a solid heart stopper (typically KJx or better, although sometimes you have to pick the smallest lie) and typically at most 2 spades, 3/3 as natural NF and 3 as a limit raise or stronger in spades.
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#26 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2020-December-19, 12:41

I'm going to double. I expect this to be unpopular, but there are no really good answers here. I dislike pass, the hand is too good. I also dislike 3d, that is too unilateral and the suit is really not that great. I'm also not prepared to go up to 4c to show this hand. What I'm going to do is a takeout double. If partner bids spades...wait for it...I'm going to pass. This may be bad, yes, but ALL the option could be bad. The nice thing is if they get greedy and try to double 2s, now I can bid 2n to show the really good 2 suiter. If partner has to play in spades, then I have lots of strength to help and they may have 5+ cards there.

The next best bid, imo, is a simple pass, see what happens.
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#27 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-December-19, 14:43

View PostHardVector, on 2020-December-19, 12:41, said:

I'm going to double. I expect this to be unpopular, but there are no really good answers here. I dislike pass, the hand is too good. I also dislike 3d, that is too unilateral and the suit is really not that great. I'm also not prepared to go up to 4c to show this hand. What I'm going to do is a takeout double. If partner bids spades...wait for it...I'm going to pass. This may be bad, yes, but ALL the option could be bad. The nice thing is if they get greedy and try to double 2s, now I can bid 2n to show the really good 2 suiter. If partner has to play in spades, then I have lots of strength to help and they may have 5+ cards there.

The next best bid, imo, is a simple pass, see what happens.


If you double, the way we play lebensohl, partner bids 2N either intending to pass 3 or showing all the good hands (or hands with a heart stop rather than without).

This is another interesting decision, do you bid 3 when there's a very good chance of making 5 opposite some fairly minimal hands ?
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#28 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2020-December-19, 21:05

View PostCyberyeti, on 2020-December-19, 14:43, said:

If you double, the way we play lebensohl, partner bids 2N either intending to pass 3 or showing all the good hands (or hands with a heart stop rather than without).

This is another interesting decision, do you bid 3 when there's a very good chance of making 5 opposite some fairly minimal hands ?

Considering I'm looking at 2 fast heart losers plus a possible uppercut position, I think I'll settle for the part score. If the auction gets that far without any bidding from the opps, it's likely that there are at most 2 hearts on your left. If hearts get raised, I'm going to get more excited.
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#29 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-December-20, 03:51

View PostHardVector, on 2020-December-19, 21:05, said:

Considering I'm looking at 2 fast heart losers plus a possible uppercut position, I think I'll settle for the part score. If the auction gets that far without any bidding from the opps, it's likely that there are at most 2 hearts on your left. If hearts get raised, I'm going to get more excited.


What actually happens is that partner depending on how optimistic he gets (he might just bid an initial 3 invitational) bids 2N-3-3 showing a game force with 5+ spades, what now ?
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#30 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2020-December-20, 05:25

View PostCyberyeti, on 2020-December-19, 04:09, said:

I will be discussing this with my partner, our meta agreements suggest 3 would be forcing and 3 would be a good spade raise. I'm not sure what a delayed 2N does or should mean.

It obviously depends on the range of your protective calls but the logical place to start your discussion would be a Weak NT. If your protective calls make that unattractive, the next point of call should probably be a good raise, with the cue reverting to a general force.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#31 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-December-20, 06:22

View PostZelandakh, on 2020-December-20, 05:25, said:

It obviously depends on the range of your protective calls but the logical place to start your discussion would be a Weak NT. If your protective calls make that unattractive, the next point of call should probably be a good raise, with the cue reverting to a general force.


Weak NT was my first thought, which is why I was surprised to see 9-11 on Devidkok's reply, but was wondering whether it was better to put it to some artificial use.
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#32 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2020-December-20, 13:03

View PostCyberyeti, on 2020-December-20, 03:51, said:

What actually happens is that partner depending on how optimistic he gets (he might just bid an initial 3 invitational) bids 2N-3-3 showing a game force with 5+ spades, what now ?

I'm committed to showing this as a takeout double, so I'm going to continue that. If partner makes a game forcing bid, I'll simply raise spades and hope my extra strength carries through. If they invite, you need to make a judgement call. If it's imps, I'll probably go to game.

This is not guaranteed to work. As I said earlier, there are no perfect solutions here. You make your bed then lie in it. I'm making the takeout double bed.
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#33 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-December-20, 14:19

View PostHardVector, on 2020-December-20, 13:03, said:

I'm committed to showing this as a takeout double, so I'm going to continue that. If partner makes a game forcing bid, I'll simply raise spades and hope my extra strength carries through. If they invite, you need to make a judgement call. If it's imps, I'll probably go to game.

This is not guaranteed to work. As I said earlier, there are no perfect solutions here. You make your bed then lie in it. I'm making the takeout double bed.


You make 4, you could have made 7, his hand as pointed out earlier, Kxxxx, AQx, Qxxxx, void.
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#34 User is offline   nudnikbp 

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Posted 2020-December-22, 21:32

Three diamonds. Nothing else makes sense.
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