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response D or H

#1 User is offline   maris oren 

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Posted 2021-January-18, 04:53



With this hand what should the bid be? or

In general if both suits are on the 1 level is it better to bid 5 card minor suit first or show the major?
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#2 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-January-18, 05:37

This is a matter of agreement. A lot of players use the Walsh convention, where a 4-, 5- or on occasion even 6-card diamond suit is bypassed to show a 4-card major*. In that case you should bid 1. But be aware that this has implications for the second round - for example 1-1; 1NT-2 need not promise longer hearts than diamonds (and opener is expected to pass), unless you use something like the XYZ convention to solve this problem unambiguously.

*With a game forcing hand, i.e. at least an opening, you simply bid up the line when playing Walsh.
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#3 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2021-January-18, 06:46

As a Walsh player as described by DavidKok above, I'll explain my rationale for responding 1.

If I am going to pass a one no trump rebid from partner, then with weaker hands I am only going to make one bid. As a major suit game is easier to make than a minor suit game, responding in a four-card major increases the chances of finding that game. Also, in competition, a major fit is more likely to win the auction.

But this is a divisive issue and you'll find everyone has their opinion. In my experience, tournament players are more likely to play Walsh than club players. In some countries Walsh is almost standard and in others unknown, but any regular partnership should have an agreement.
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#4 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-January-18, 07:00

View Postpaulg, on 2021-January-18, 06:46, said:

As a Walsh player as described by DavidKok above, I'll explain my rationale for responding 1.

If I am going to pass a one no trump rebid from partner, then with weaker hands I am only going to make one bid. As a major suit game is easier to make than a minor suit game, responding in a four-card major increases the chances of finding that game. Also, in competition, a major fit is more likely to win the auction.

But this is a divisive issue and you'll find everyone has their opinion. In my experience, tournament players are more likely to play Walsh than club players. In some countries Walsh is almost standard and in others unknown, but any regular partnership should have an agreement.


The other thing that matters here is whether you play 1-1-1 as unbalanced or if rebidding 1N denies 4M. In old fashioned Acol, with 4M4m32 you open the major, so responding 1 is not an issue.
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#5 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2021-January-19, 07:22

In Acol and most American systems, the normal response is 1. In SEF, Forum D and other "up-the-line" systems (as well as Precision) the correct response is 1. Without a system context, the question is therefore impossible to answer
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#6 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2021-January-19, 14:32

View PostZelandakh, on 2021-January-19, 07:22, said:

In Acol and most American systems, the normal response is 1.


If you play the style of Acol where you open the major with 4-4 in a major and a minor it is normal to respond up the line.
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#7 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2021-January-20, 13:59

View PostZelandakh, on 2021-January-19, 07:22, said:

In Acol and most American systems, the normal response is 1. In SEF, Forum D and other "up-the-line" systems (as well as Precision) the correct response is 1. Without a system context, the question is therefore impossible to answer

All true, but the Precision 1 response shows 0-7 HCP and any distribution, so it's not the same reason as in the other systems.
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#8 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2021-January-21, 03:22

View PostTramticket, on 2021-January-19, 14:32, said:

If you play the style of Acol where you open the major with 4-4 in a major and a minor it is normal to respond up the line.

With my current partner, we open 1M with 4M4m(32) and respond 1M to 1 with 4M5 and a weak hand, so I guess that must make us abnormal? I note also that the official EBU Modern Acol system file also advocates this approach (see 2.1).
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#9 User is offline   morecharac 

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Posted 2021-January-21, 12:17

View Postmaris oren, on 2021-January-18, 04:53, said:



With this hand what should the bid be? or

In general if both suits are on the 1 level is it better to bid 5 card minor suit first or show the major?

We play up-the-line SA, so this is an easy 1.

Unless partner shows enough extra strength for a jump shift we're done; even 1 is getting passed.

I think we're very much in the minority, though.
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#10 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2021-January-21, 22:53

View PostZelandakh, on 2021-January-21, 03:22, said:

With my current partner, we open 1M with 4M4m(32) and respond 1M to 1 with 4M5 and a weak hand, so I guess that must make us abnormal? I note also that the official EBU Modern Acol system file also advocates this approach (see 2.1).


Could you check please Zelandkh? I don't read the EBU system notes the same way. I think the first para says "bid up the line" and the second deals with a situation where showing the minor would have to be at the two level (e.g. partner opens 1H and you have four spades and five clubs):


2.3.1 Choice of suit
With two 5-card or longer suits, bid the higher ranking if you intend to showboth suits in the most economical way. With two 4-card suits, bid the cheaper,i.e. the one which takes up least bidding space. If partner declines anopportunity to bid your other 4-card suit, you can safely ignore it and rebid inno trumps.
With suits of unequal length, bid the longer first unless the hand is too weak torespond at the two level. Show a 4-card major at the one level in preference toa longer minor at the two level with fewer than 13 HCP. To bid the longerminor and then the 4-card major is called a Responder抯 reverse and is forcingto game.

For what it's worth I usually bid up the line, but look at suit quality for opening lead purposes, so might prefer to respond 1H on say KQxx ahead of diamonds of Jxxxx (somebody has the spades and it's not me). But there is no single "right" answer
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#11 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2021-January-22, 01:23

View PostZelandakh, on 2021-January-21, 03:22, said:

With my current partner, we open 1M with 4M4m(32) and respond 1M to 1 with 4M5 and a weak hand, so I guess that must make us abnormal? I note also that the official EBU Modern Acol system file also advocates this approach (see 2.1).


You needed to read a bit further - see 2.3.1

Edit: Sorry, I see Douglas already said this.
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#12 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-January-22, 03:31

View PostTramticket, on 2021-January-22, 01:23, said:

You needed to read a bit further - see 2.3.1

Edit: Sorry, I see Douglas already said this.


You're misreading it "Show a 4-card major at the one level in preference to a longer minor at the two level with fewer than 13 HCP."

This is relevant to the other thread not this one where diamonds are bid at the 1 level
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#13 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2021-January-22, 10:32

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-January-22, 03:31, said:

You're misreading it "Show a 4-card major at the one level in preference to a longer minor at the two level with fewer than 13 HCP."

This is relevant to the other thread not this one where diamonds are bid at the 1 level



I think that Zel gave a partial quotation in the other thread. The full text is:

Quote

2.3.1 Choice of suit
With two 5-card or longer suits, bid the higher ranking if you intend to show both suits in the most economical way. With two 4-card suits, bid the cheaper, i.e. the one which takes up least bidding space. If partner declines an opportunity to bid your other 4-card suit, you can safely ignore it and rebid in no trumps.

With suits of unequal length, bid the longer first unless the hand is too weak to respond at the two level. Show a 4-card major at the one level in preference to a longer minor at the two level with fewer than 13 HCP. To bid the longer minor and then the 4-card major is called a Responder抯 reverse and is forcing to game.


I have highlighted bold the part that advocates bidding up the line with equal length suits.
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